Listen to stories from The Chirp of everyday people trying to navigate the complex world of dealing with money within their relationships. Dive into the positive, the negative, and all the stories in between that we all hold near and dear to our hearts when it comes to finances and our loved ones.

The Chirp Podcast | Pigeon

The Chirp: A Podcast By Pigeon Loans

Back once again for another episode of The Chirp! If you missed us last time, well you missed some piping hot drama and tea. Last episode we spoke with one of our in-house writers, Rachel Curry, about her troubles and tribulations that she had to face when dealing with the world of PPP loans. Nearly having to shut down her freelancing career, Rachel had to endure quite a lot of stress, angst, and emotion in trying to get by financially while her only glimmer of hope was being ripped away from her. It's a story for the ages, so if you haven't already check out Story 24: PPP Gone Wrong before you dive into this week's conversation.

Our story this week is certainly an exciting one. On The Chirp, we welcomed Amanda Heyliger, a mother, painter, project manager, baker, cybersecurity junkie, and best of all - a speed walker! Having a world filled with many passions, Amanda does it all, but at one point in her life, just like the things that bring her joy, a multitude of struggles forced her life to a screeching halt. With commentary about the current status of debt in America, and how she was able to navigate financial struggles herself, Amanda walks us through the virtue of what it means to keep going, whenever the going gets tough.

Sometimes, life can get overwhelming, and suddenly at that. One day you may be planning to start a new dream job in your dream city, but without notice, all of that could change in an instant. Our guest this week, Amadan Heyliger, is no stranger to this reality. A lover of pretty much everything; art, music, technology, real estate, travel, and best of all, speed walking - Amanda walked us through the journey she had to undergo both financially and mentally during a time at which all of life's struggles came crashing down on her all at once. An awesome tale of resilience and being open to life's opportunities, Amanda reminds us that despite our struggles, there is a little bit of fun, beauty, and positivity in everything.

You'll find this episode of The Chirp on:

Have a story to tell and want to be on our podcast? Let us know by sending an email to claird@pigeonloans.io.

The Chirp Story 25: When Life Hits You All At Once

Audio Transcript of Story 25: When Life Hits You All At Once

Hello everyone, Cameron here with another episode of The Chirp: A Podcast By Pigeon where we bring you fascinating conversations with interesting people about relationships and money. I’m currently outside at a lovely resort in the south of Spain bringing you some sterling conversation with my awesome guest this week. 

Amanda Heyliger is a connection of mine on Linkedin who, having seen her profile, I thought would be an awesome guest for us here on The Chirp. She is building up an impressive resume in tech and I thought it would be interesting to hear about her life and how she got into tech.

Talking to Amanda made me realize quick that her life story was far more interesting than what her Linkedin presented and I learned about her struggles in life, how she has improved her life, not just financially but in other ways as well, and while she’s not exactly where she wants to be, she’s certainly on the right track.

I also got her opinion on a big American matter at the moment with the student loan relief and it was great, as a European, to get an American’s point of view on what’s happened there at the moment. 

Laughs and life stories shall ensure so hope you all enjoy episode number 25 of The Chirp - Let’s go!

Amanda. Thank you so much for joining me today on The Chirp. How are things with you? 

Very well, thank you. Just had a really great weekend and enjoying my Monday. I like Mondays. So...

Me too. I don't NOT like Mondays. Brilliant, Amanda. We had a call there a couple of days ago.

You've some very fascinating stories to tell, but before we get into them, would you mind telling our listeners a little bit about who you are and what you're doing at the moment? 

So I am a mother of two. That's my first job. I work in tech, a little bit of consulting and cybersecurity, project management.

So that's what I currently do as a career. On the side, I create art and I love my garden and I enjoy kitchen stuff! Everything from baking to different cuisine and experimenting and trying things. So those are my hobbies. I love the outdoors. I'm an avid cyclist and a speed walker! 

Very good. And tell me, what art do you make if you don’t mind me asking?

Well, my medium is like a little bit of acryllics. Sometimes oil. I've bee, really in touch with Georgia O’Keeffe lately and enjoying a little bit of watercolor. So it's a mixed medium. Whatever my heart decides upon that day. 

Very good. Sounds exciting. Well, listen, Amanda, we were talking about how you just recently acquired your new home.

Congratulations, first and foremost. Could you explain a little bit to us about your journey and what led up to your success, the moment about your journey up until this?

Absolutely. My home ownership goal was I thought it would happen sooner than later, but, you know, once I started the process of trying to own a home, it was more lengthy than I thought. I had to save and I saved a lot by myself.

My husband at the time was in and out of the country. So we had some savings, but, you know, I started off with my rainy day fund. You know, I was renting, I was moving quite a lot with the company that I was working for at the time. It was like I was moving every year.

So it still afforded me to have a good little savings account. Time went on and I was enjoying hopping, one year here, one year there. It really gave me the experiences that I was longing for. But soon after that my significant other passed away. So, the finances and the debt that I had to deal with really became first precedence at that moment.

So I was back down to zero. And the only real thing I had was deep savings, a 401k. I had a friend who had told me a long time ago to put some money in a Roth account. So I was literally putting little bits and pieces in there. That's really all I had to myself.

So then, you know, fast forward, it just became a situation where I wasn’t gonna be able to purchase a home. There's just really like no way and then looking at the market and everything, I just felt like it was out of reach. Then the pandemic came and my daughter was born. So it was just like, where am I gonna get the money?

But through the pandemic, I really felt like if I have a home, I would be able to do different things for revenue, business ventures, and creative business ventures, it was gonna be a segue for me. So I moved from the city, where I was having this vibrant life and vibrant opportunities to Appalachia and it was affordable.

I felt safe. I felt like my children would be safe here. I felt like I would be safer here as opposed to the city. And I made that move. I knew it was affordable. And I took the little bit of savings that I had and from the savings that I had also gained through the pandemic and I put it together and made it work. 

I made sure I had to move in with my parents which as an adult, that is one of the hardest things. Ummm... 

What you can do, especially when you've been living on your own and you have your own vibe and what you spend money on, and then I'm a millennial, so, you know, we're a different kind of people anyway, we're that segue.

So it was hard but we made it through and I'm grateful for that because it enabled me to be in the home that I am now. I'm grateful for that. It was a journey. It took me about eight years with everything that happened in my life. But we're here.

Here we are. Well, congratulations anyway. And can you talk to me a bit over the last few years if you're comfortable with it, of course. What were the transitions like of becoming a single mother financially and all the financial dependency that you had to acquire? What was that like? 

There are so many different levels because I have always worked. It felt like from high school to college I was in so many different things from college, to after college, I've always been able to work and get my hands dirty at anything I wanted to do, and to be supported by that, by my significant other was great.

But then him being in and out of the country and being a dual citizen, he wasn't always here. So I still had to put in a lot of work actually. But I did have help if I felt like I was not going to be able to make certain bills or needed help with things that I wanted. So to have that disappear was traumatic and I don't have the best relationship with my family, unfortunately.

So it wasn't like something I could go and say, “Hey mom, Hey dad, let me get a loan. Let me get 20 grand. Let me get 10 grand to put down on a home”. So it was literally, you know, budgeting and resources and pulling together. 

And you say you obviously don’t have the best relationship with your family. During this time were you were on your own, did you ask anyone for help? Did you have people there that you could lean on a bit financially or was it just all you? 

I'm a strong believer in karma. And I'm a strong believer that people get put in your life at times of need, and throughout my growth, even now, I'll get these awesome people in my corner, and sometimes they only are there for a month.

Sometimes they're there for two years, but I'm not gonna say, “Oh, I did all this by myself”. I guess if someone else were to look at it, they'd be like, oh, you're a self-made king person, because I'm still rising. But you know, I would not say that because in every single place I have, I have small children, so who's gonna raise my babies?

Who's gonna help me? Who am I gonna entrust in case I have to work late? I have been truly taken care of because my kiddos are great. They've had a great upbringing. Just because of the moving they're very culturally diverse.

So I'm gonna say absolutely. I had tons of help, but it came from the most inconspicuous places, places I would've never really looked and they would just walk up to me. So, I guess that's divine right for you!

Fantastic. And your professional life at the moment, you know, obviously things are going so great for you at the moment.

Do you enjoy working in tech and do you attribute your success, your life success at the moment to the industry that you're in? Is it financially rewarding for you? 

I'll tell you, I had no idea. Okay. My trajectory was anthropology, sociology, and psychology. That was my trajectory.

I started as a music major. So I had no idea I was going into tech, but when the pandemic happened and I was managing a salon spa at the time. So it's very hands-on. And I just had my daughter, so you can imagine all the feelings that I had about this new pandemic and working all hands-on and people getting sick all the time.

I just had to let it go. So, you know, I'm sitting there and I'm like, well, this is an opportunity for me to grow. What do I need to learn more about? And I said, well, since I had left the hair industry, I really didn't feel like I knew as much tech as I should, and going forward I was just reading forums and white papers.

I need to know more about this stuff if I'm gonna last, especially with my husband being gone, I said, ‘If I am going to lead my family and change the narrative, then I need to be versed in this”. So it really started with me getting this job and seeing what I can learn.

Story 25: When Life Hits You All At Once

Story 24: PPP Gone Wrong

Welcome back to another episode of The Chirp! A couple of weeks ago we spoke with a well seasoned and well entrepreneur by the name of Buddy Rathmell. Dedicated to now helping small business entrepreneurs make their mark in the digital world of search discovery, Buddy walked us through his humble beginnings and brought us along on a tale of friendships strengthen but also ruined by lofty expectations. If you have checked out Story 23: Set The Right Expectations already, make sure you tune in.

This week on The Chirp, we explored what happens when your financial goals in life get derailed by circumstances outside of your control. A death, an illness, or even a leaky roof can certainly turn any financial plan into financial ruin, but when a global pandemic comes along, financial unpredictability becomes a way. No stranger to the unpredictability of business, our guest, Rachel Curry walked us through the jaw-dropping struggles she faced in trying to navigate the world of PPP loans. From hopeful to hopeless, listen as we discuss with Rachel all the pitfalls that can arise even in the life of the most financially well-prepared.

We all know that managing your finances is tough. We also know that running a business is tough. But what if you had to manage your finances while also trying to run a self-employed business during a time at which economic activity across the world grinded to a screeching halt? Well our guest this week, Rachel Curry, had to do just that. Having started her career as a freelance writer only months prior to a global pandemic beginning, Rachel spoke with us about the struggles she had to endure to make ends meet during the financial meltdown caused by COVID-19. A sobering story filled with misplaced trust, and hope for a better tomorrow, Rachel shows us the ugly side of what can wrong when you ask for help. 

The Chirp Story 24: PPP Gone Wrong

Audio Transcript of Story 24: PPP Gone Wrong

Hello everyone, Cameron here again with another delightful episode of The Chirp: A Podcast By Pigeon, where we interview fascinating people with fascinating stories about their lives and relationships being affected by money and by loans.

Today I have an awesome episode for you where I interview a talented freelance writer called Rachel Curry. I was introduced to her by my colleagues at Pigeon as she writes some awesome articles for their website and I would strongly recommend checking her out after this episode.

One of the topics that she specializes in is finance which makes her a great guest for us, not just because of her industry knowledge, but also how intricately she can explain how her own personal finance has been affected in recent times.

And Rachel came to us wanting to share her story about how some government funding over the pandemic caused her quite a bit of hassle and also to share what she has learned from her experience.

Rachel brings her expertise, her story-telling, and her financial wisdom to The Chirp today. I hope you all enjoy and do stick around to see how you can get in touch with Rachel. Let’s go.

Brilliant. Rachel, thank you so much for coming on to The Chirp. How are things with you today this morning? 

I'm very good. Very good. Thanks for asking. I know you have a very long awkward story that happened to you but before we dive into that can you tell our listeners, a little bit about who you are and what you do?

Sure. My name is Rachel Curry. I'm a freelance content writer and journalist, and I also happen to write for the Pigeon website. So I write about finance and investing, especially impact investing. Very interesting. The story I have kind of relates to being a freelance writer and relying on a government program during the COVID-19 pandemic.

I know that's kind of relevant to all kinds of business owners as well. So hopefully I can let people know that it wasn't always a comfortable process. And if that happened to them, they're not alone. 

Oh absolutely! All the way. And what has given you an interest in personal finance and impact investing? What prompted you to write about that? Where did that area of your life begin?

Well, it started by being a freelance writer and by January 2020, I realized business is a little slow right now.

And I think that as I've progressed in my career, I've realized that's very common for the first month or so of the year. It takes a little while for people to get their projects going. But at the time, I didn't realize that. So I was a little bit stressed about my finances and I knew that I was making a different amount of money every month and I really wanted to feel a sense of control.

So I started listening to a podcast called Bad With Money with Gaby Dunn, which has a really fun approach to money and just understanding the markets and that got me interested. And from there, I just started researching and consuming different forms of media relating to it. And it was very empowering to learn about something that, as a left-handed, creative person, never thought I would be able to understand.

So once I realized that I could figure it out, it just kind of went from there. 

Fantastic. And do you think from all of your studies and your research that you have definitely improved things for yourself financially? Because I know as a freelancer, that really hits home with me that every month can be quite a little bit different, in terms of what you're bringing in. That's kind of the life of a freelancer in terms of inconsistent income. Have you managed or are you on the journey to even that out for yourself?

Yeah. So one thing I learned that was really helpful is to segment my money. So before I maybe had one account for everything, and when I was starting my business, I didn't even have a separate business checking account. So now I've an official LLC, a separate business checking account, retirement fund that I'm investing in through my own strategy.

I have a midterm savings fund that maybe I hope to access in like 10 years that has some investments in it. I have an emergency fund in case anything happens now that I can access. So I've got money kind of all over the place now, but it makes me feel a little more comfortable just knowing if there's some money for anything really specific that could happen in my life.

And it made me feel more comfortable, more in control. 

Fantastic. Well, this sounds all very positive. But I do hear that you have a less than positive story to share, and I'd love you to tell me and the listeners as well if you wouldn't mind. 

Sure. I'm not sure if your listeners are primarily from the United States, but the paycheck protection program loan in the US came out toward the start of the COVID-19 pandemic.

It was originally for small business owners with employees. And then over time they opened it up to independent contractors, such as myself at the time. I did not have an LLC, so I was just a solo entrepreneur, as they say. So yeah, I was reading about it through some of my research, writing for my clients actually.

And I realized I was eligible for this. But I wanted to be certain. So I did speak with an accountant who helped me gather all the information I needed for the application. And I know that we heard this word a lot during the pandemic - unprecedented. But I feel like it's really relevant here because the paycheck protection program had never been done before.

And it was new, not just to people like me who were receiving it. It was also new to the lenders and the third-party FinTech companies who were facilitating these loans to people, basically the small business administration. Contracted all of this out to those companies and the SBA will come in later to forgive them.

And is this a loan that was given out much like other types of loans during COVID where they’re giving you this money, but they do expect it back in some form or another in the future, or was this a simple handout? 

So most of the loans ended up being forgiven by the SBA. So basically I was given the loan and then a few months later when The SBA opened up forgiveness, I was able to apply for forgiveness, and they forgave it. 

And that was that I never had to pay it back. Some PPP loans weren't forgiven most of the time. This is if they were used incorrectly. There were terms for usage. Primarily for businesses with employees, because one of the terms was you needed to use a majority of the money for payroll.

When you're an independent contractor, the whole business is payroll. So you can kind of just give it to yourself and use it how you please. So it was a little bit different, but the expectation was for it to be forgiven. It was a way to prop up the economy when things were closed down.

So basically I started freelance writing in 2019, and I did go to college for professional writing and journalism. And I had even worked in some staff roles after college for a little while before progressing into the freelance space. When I did go freelance in 2019, I was traveling throughout Southeast Asia.

So I had some money saved up, expecting that I wouldn't be making that much. And the cost of living was low in Thailand and the surrounding areas that I was in. So it was a good opportunity for me to get my feet wet. But honestly, in 2019 my income was like $8,000 for the year. So it wasn't much, but by the time 20, the end of 2020 rolled around, I had made closer to $50,000.

And that number only continued to increase from there, but at the start of the pandemic, things were still in the early stages. It started in what, like March 2020? So I didn't feel fully comfortable with my business yet. And I felt this opportunity for a PPP loan is available to me. I don't see why I shouldn't take advantage of it.

Of course. So the way the PPP loan worked for independent contractors, I'm not super sure if it's the same for small businesses, but in my case, there were two rounds of loans that you may be eligible for. So the first round of PPP loans. You had to be in business on or before February 2020 to be eligible.

And it ended up being about 20% of your revenue for either 2019 or 2020. So by the time I was applying for the PPP loan in 2021, I knew my 2020 revenue was a little bit more and that I barely made anything in 2019. So I decided, okay, I'll select the 2020 revenue. So that way I can just get a little extra padding.

It ended up giving me about $10,600, which was super helpful. I was able to pay myself and contribute to my retirement saving. I bought a new computer monitor. The one I was using was crap from small hand-me-down and really not even connecting properly. I was able to get an office chair for myself; I have back problems. 

So different things like that. And I invested in my business in various other ways. So it was super helpful. And then I knew that the second round of PPP loans I was not eligible for, because that required you to make less money in 2020 than in 2019, assuming the pandemic hit your business.

In my case, I made almost no money in 2019. So even though I made more money it wasn't this incredible amount. So yeah, so I just took the first round happily. I knew I wasn't eligible for round two. And so that was that I did - choose to get a loan through a third-party financier. 

It was deposited into my bank. I'm not sure I feel comfortable saying the name of the bank, just because it was a contentious few months with them, but I'm comfortable saying that they are in the top 10 largest US banks. 

Okay so you got this approved, this PPP loan, but then a third party is the one actually giving you the sum, this bank?

Yes and later on the process requires you to apply for forgiveness through the small business administration or SBA. And if it's an approved lender, who was allowed to be doing the PPP loan process, then it usually went smoothly. And in my case, that's what happened. I had the $10,600 in my account and later on applied to have it forgiven.

We all know that managing your finances is tough. We also know that running a business is tough. But what if you had to manage your finances while also trying to run a self-employed business during a time at which economic activity across the world grinded to a screeching halt? Well our guest this week, Rachel Curry, had to do just that. Having started her career as a freelance writer only months prior to a global pandemic beginning, Rachel spoke with us about the struggles she had to endure to make ends meet during the financial meltdown caused by COVID-19. A sobering story filled with misplaced trust, and hope for a better tomorrow, Rachel shows us the ugly side of what can wrong when you ask for help.

Story 23: Set The Right Expectations

Thailand, Strengthened Relationships & Good Guidelines

Last time on The Chirp we sat down with African Irishman, Ngalinda Ngalinda to talk about the power of hard work and dreaming big. An episode filled with so many tidbits of wisdom, if you missed it, you definitely need to check it out before your dive into our latest story. We talked about everything from the power of intentional thought to the realization that life is all about overcoming struggles, so before you listen to Story 23, rewind a bit and check out Story 22: Remember To Struggle.

Another exciting episode this week! In our conversation today, we spoke with a well-seasoned entrepreneur by the name of Buddy Rathmell. Having spent nearly a decade in Thailand building escape rooms and other ventures, Buddy now helps other entrepreneurs across the world broaden their footprint online via his agency Map Winners and his school focused on ethical business called The BAM School. From stories of failed ideas to tales of friendships strengthened by simple acts of generosity, Buddy reminds us that setting the right expectations when navigating anything in life can often lead to better outcomes.

Life is full of expectations. Whether struggling to understand the desires of a significant other, confused about our roles within our careers, or tired of being let down by the people around us, meeting or achieving expectations is a tough reality we all have to deal with. Just like everyone else, our guest this week, Buddy Rathmell is no stranger to expectations. Having moved halfway across the world from the United States to Thailand in hopes of starting a successful escape room business, Buddy shared with us the gravity of the expectations he faced along his journey. A journey filled with uncertainty, angst, lifelong friendships, and financial insecurities we discussed all the hurdles but also triumphs that can fill life when expectations get involved. Sometimes expectations work out as planned and other times they lead to disaster, but all in all, setting the right expectations is key to making sure everything works out in the end.

The Chirp Story 23: Set The Right Expectations

Audio Transcript of Story 23: Set The Right Expectations

Hello everyone and welcome back to another episode of The Chirp: A Podcast By Pigeon where we interview people from all walks of life about their relationships and how they are affected by money and by loans.

In today’s episode, I had the pleasure of speaking with Buddy Rathmell from Virginia. Buddy is a gentleman I’ve met through my online podcast networking over the last while. He is an entrepreneur with his current venture being MapWinners, a company that helps improve their Google Maps listing.

Buddy has lived in Thailand and has lots of experience with business and loans and was able to share some very interesting stories about what he has learned from his endeavors over the years and what mistakes he won't make again. 

And hey, if you’re looking to up your digital presence online using Google Maps, be sure to stick around and get his contact details at the end of the episode. 

Buddy. Thank you so much for coming on to The Chirp. It's a pleasure to have you, how are things?

It's going great, Cameron, thanks for inviting me. Glad to be here. And looking forward to our conversation. 

Yeah, my pleasure. Me too. Me too. So we kind of know each other through the podcast industry, networking in that way, but I'd love for you to tell our listeners a little bit about who you are and what you're doing at the moment as well.

Sure. Yeah. I've spent my life like living all over the world, most of the time out of America, more time than in, but just recently moved back from Thailand to Roanoke, Virginia. And I had a school for entrepreneurs there last year. And out of that school, I launched a business called Map Winners to help clients get to the top of Google and I’m really enjoying that.

One of my first clients, I helped him triple his business to go from five employees to twenty. And then we were off to the races. I started consulting in 1999 after a stint in corporate America. And then did some mission work. We did some anti-human trafficking work in Thailand and then after a season, I went back to business consulting and in my business consulting I was helping this guy with a pitch he wanted to do. He was a solar installer and wanted to land a big Japanese company.

So we did this whole PowerPoint pitch for him. And as he's leaving, he's like, “Yeah, I got in a huge fight with my wife last night”. And I was like, “Oh, really? Like what happened?” And he goes, “Well, she hasn't answered Facebook messages from potential clients in three months. And this German guy got all over my Facebook. He wrote on every post, like how I wasn't real. And I sucked. And it turns out like, we just haven't been responding to messages”. and I was like, “Well, how are you getting business?” And he said, “Well, that work that you did for me on Google last year. I get more business than I can handle just from that”.

And I was like, as he's saying this, my mind is spinning, because I knew I spent like five, six hours of like SEO work and it had helped him to go from five employees to twenty. So I was like, "Holy crap". And so I found one of the best guys in the world, I asked him to mentor me and it's just like the power of Google business profiles right now for businesses is just off the charts.

And so like he has like 300 clients and hardly ever does a client leave. I'm a little bit earlier in my agency. But it's super powerful for businesses. Like it's really the only advertising channel most businesses need after they get theirs set up. So it's, yeah, it's really fun.

I love helping people just in general. So it's kind of fun to help people grow their business. 

Fantastic. And you, Buddy, growing your own businesses, have you any stories about your own career trajectory, where money or loans have maybe affected your relationships or maybe just your own life in general?

Yeah, well, I've had money and I've been in debt and it's a lot more fun to have money indeed, for sure! But yeah, in 2015, I decided to start a couple of escape rooms in Cambodia and Thailand. We were with the largest franchiser of escape rooms and these were gonna be their flagship stores one was gonna be in Cambodia, in Angkor Wat. 

And we had multi-level rooms, elevators that you would go by, and flowing water rooms that moved all this stuff. So I needed a lot of money for the build-out. It was about a hundred thousand in each location to build out the places.

We had the highest rents in each city and huge rooms. I had eight rooms in one city, six in another. So I had to put all of my life savings plus about a hundred thousand of investor capital into these. And about eight, nine months in, I knew like this was never gonna take off. I called all the others in Asia, like the ones in Australia and Europe and North America and they were kicking by all the ones in Asia.

Pretty much everyone I talked to eventually went under, including the number one location in Bangkok. They all ended up shutting down. So yeah, there was a lot of stress around that. Like I got done and I'm a hundred grand in debt to investors. 

So we sold a car, didn't go out to eat for five months at one point. And thankfully we were living in Thailand and so our expenses were quite a bit less. But yeah, that wasn't a fun season for sure. Of being in debt. And I had personally guaranteed all of the loans, and looking back now for like a large business like that, I would and have structured it differently where I'm not personally guaranteeing that kind of money going into that.

Even though I would do everything in my power to pay people back. In fact, one of my investors, I saw at a conference in Silicon Valley a couple years ago, he just said, “Hey, I really appreciate your integrity in doing everything you could to pay me back on time with interest in spite of your circumstances”.

So I have respect for that, but was not a fun situation. And so moving forward for our family, we just kind of structured things where it's like, okay, business finances are totally separate from our life and family and personal finances. I think that for us, that was just a really good way to go moving forward for sure.

Absolutely. And do you mind me asking why… this is a little bit of a tangent question, but why didn't the success from Europe and the Americas translate in Asia? Why did that kind of industry tank a little bit? Was it just not as popular? 

Yeah, I'm not sure exactly. I know part of it is like, especially in Southeast Asia, they're really big in China, but there'll be one room where it's just kind of more like puzzles where ours were these big things. 

We had one room where you would open a door and realize it was a brick wall and clues would tell you what to do. You'd push it down and then you'd open another door. At the end you're shooting a laser through one room, it's going through a statue and there's a mirror hidden in the eyes of the statue, and that shoots out the laser and you see a brick on the wall.

One survived in that same city, but they were just really small. Like in Asia they have these things where it's like a business on the first floor and the family lives on like the second and third floor. It's a really common thing.

And so people that have built small ones, where maybe their rent is like $500, $600 a month and they just have a little bit of room, they're kind of simpler. So those kind of survived. 

Honestly, one of the biggest lessons I learned from that, and I tell this to everyone… There's a book called Designing Your Life written by these design professors out of Stanford University. And they talk about if whatever you want to do in life, it doesn't matter if you wanna be doctor, nurse stockbroker, podcast host, whatever. The best thing to do is call 20 people and ask them what it's like. Just say, “Hey, what's it like being a podcast host, what do you love about it? What do you hate? What goes well? What doesn't”. And a lot of times, people will get actually get job offers from this. Like if you call 20 podcast hosts, maybe somebody is like, “Hey, we're expanding. Do you want to join our team?”

And that's what I did. I had read that book. And I thought about that part and I called all the other people in Asia one morning and I was like, “Oh crap, I'm screwed”. Nobody was profitable and it was another like five months of grinding.

I was like, “I can make this work”. Like I said to someone one time, if Richard Branson was here, he would find a way to make this work. He would do something. And I had said that to a number of people. I'm like, “He has the naked chick on his back parasailing!”

And someone was like, “Hey bro, like half of Richard Branson's businesses have failed. He didn't have every one of his businesses be successful”. And so yeah, just market forces. But there was a couple of lessons for me.

I tried to launch two big ones in two different countries at the same time. And in Asia, starting a company is so much more difficult than in the west, especially America. Like I can literally go online and have a company, bank, website, everything for America done today, you know, and I've got a registered company. That's not the case in Asia. 

Yeah so just market forces. I actually helped somebody get a job just this year. They were a teacher coming back to America and I was like, “Hey, just call people in the industry and just ask them like, what's going on, you know?”

And they ended up landing a job just by saying, “Hey, do you know anyone that's hiring for this?” And they were like, “Oh yeah, actually my husband, blah, blah, blah”. And they ended up getting a job. So I think that calling up people for prototyping conversations would've saved me a quarter million dollars.

I think all of those things together combined for a massive failure and a big slice of humble pie for me!

Brilliant. Brilliant. And you said something there that was interesting about moving forward. You're gonna separate your personal, familial finance with your business finances.

Can you talk to me, without getting too personal, what the actions are that you're gonna take now, you and your family. What are some of the things that you are going to do differently in that regard? 

So one of the things, this school that I started last year was actually funded by an investor.

And so I set up a holding company, set up the company, set up the bank account, and got an investor to fund the school. The idea is that we're funding him, and paying him back through the business. And that was set up. I asked for I think $86,000 to run the first startup school - was about 7 months.

And he sent me a contract from his lawyer that had a personal guarantee. And I said, “Hey, listen, I'm not doing a personal guarantee”. I explained my history. And he said, “Okay, I'll still do it. Let's do 50 grand. No personal guarantee, just on the company”. And so that was 10% interest for the first year.

We have it structured that if I don't pay him back at the end of the year, it increases in interest. And also I said, I would do a three-year run of this. If I didn't get it by year three and pay him back, I'd close down the company and he's really chill.

I've been talking to him along the way. I may or may not get to the full amount by this first year. I'm still like getting clients and building up the agency. But I think this next client that I just landed, I know I'm gonna do a great job for him.

I'm going to use him as an additional case study, because I think we're really gonna explode his business. He's moving into a more profitable sector. And so I'll just use him as a case study. So I might be paying back the full amount with interest. If not, I've been talking to him and I said, “Okay, I'll pay you this and then we'll do the interest off the rest for until that's paid back”.

But that just eliminates the stress of if my family was like, “Okay, we're on the hook for say 15,000 if I don't get any more clients”. That's not a fun place to be where it's not like there isn't pressure because it’s still a loan.

But this guy doesn't want me to feel any stress or pressure from it. We were upfront with the contract. I was upfront at the beginning. I think when you have good guidelines and you're on the same page, I think that's important in anything, a dating relationship, a business relationship.

And when you put money into the situation, you just take that times five. Even with my with my first business we ended up paying back everyone on time. A couple of people were like, “Hey, since this crashed and burned, don't worry about the interest. Just give me back my principal”. I really appreciated that generosity. 

But everyone was paid back within the terms of what we had agreed to before. And some of those people were really good friends. And so you want that relationship to continue on after in a good way, you know?

And yeah. So I just think it's important in anything that you structure things so that you are both on the same page with something. I think values are really important. So if you're in a relationship it's like, let's talk values. Like I had talked to you personally when we were talking about a different project.

On my own website, BuddyRathmell.com, I have on there personality tests, values tests, different things like that. I'm like, if we work together, this is who I am. And this is what you're getting into. I'd love to know a bit about you. Is there a good fit within that?

And then you throw in money and if you don't have things really specific, it can go sideways in a hurry.

And from your personal life with your friends, have you any other stories where loans have been an issue between you and a friend? 

Story 22: Remember To Struggle

In our last episode, we ventured across the pond and landed ourselves in the UK. We welcomed Benjamin Dennehy to the show - a world-renowned salesman; so much so that they call him The UK’s Most-Hated Sales Trainer. If you didn't get a chance to check out our episode with Benjamin, you certainly should. We discussed everything from growing up poor, to the life of sales, and we ultimately realized that there are sometimes many journies you have to take in order to discover your passion in life. Circle back and listen to Story 21: You've Got A Week And Then You're Out.

This week we had another exciting conversation! For our guest on The Chirp, we welcomed a man whose name is so nice you have to say it twice, Ngalinda Ngalinda. Born in Africa, raised in Ireland, and now a local of Dubai, Ngalinda is a self-made businessman who epitomizes the image of a hard worker. In this episode, we talked about all things resilience, dreaming big, and using your mind to help you get ahead in life. It was an inspiring conversation filled with many great tidbits of advice and wisdom - enjoy!

Progress is something we all look to continually achieve in life. From getting better at a sport to learning a brand new skill, every day we are constantly trying to be better people and do grander things in our lives to make it worth living. Making progress in anything isn't easy, oftentimes it takes resilience, a little ingenuity, and ultimately the drive to overcome many struggles. Our guest this week, Ngalinda Ngalinda is no stranger to overcoming the struggles it takes in order to be successful. A Dubai-based businessman, Ngalinda walks us through the lessons he's learned in life from his early years in Africa, his coming of age time in Ireland, and his time in academia honing his skills in the world of computer science and sales. Struggling is a natural part of life, so listen closely as Ngalinda reminds us that overcoming struggle is only the path forward to truly reaching success.

The Chirp Story 22: Remember To Struggle

Audio Transcript of Story 22: Remember To Struggle

Hello everyone welcome back to another episode of The Chirp. This is a podcast where we hear stories about money and loans affecting our relationships and how our personal finance shapes how we live our lives. 

I have a very interesting guest for you today. His name is Ngalinda Ngalinda, the man so nice they named him twice. Born in Tanzania 31 years ago, he moved to Ireland when he was 6 years old and right into my neighborhood in Dublin where we became friends. 

From playing soccer together on the streets, I’ve watched him grow through school and college, to having a short acting/comedy career where he appeared on an Irish dating show, probably a story for another day, to creating his own marketing agency, Successful Media, over the last few years and now living in Dubai working on another project as well, where he dialed in from for our conversation.

Ngalinda has a great story from living modestly in Dublin City to now operating two companies that are growing. I’ve always admired him for his character and sense of humor and now for his entrepreneurial endeavors. It’s not easy coming to a new city so young and competing for opportunity and trying to succeed financially. I hope you all enjoy his story. Let’s go!

Ngalinda it's so wonderful to have you on The Chirp. It's great to see you again. How are things? 

Good good good. Good to see you again, Cameron. All good!

It's been a minute since I’ve seen you, so I think it was a couple of years now since I've seen you last. 

Ngalinda I've known you for a long, long time. I was quite keen to get you on The Chirp, ever since I started the podcast to be honest, because I think you have a really interesting story, not because of the amount of success you're having at the moment, but your road to get where you are today. I just think it's fascinating.

So to our listeners who wouldn't know you as well as I do, can you give us a little bit of an idea of who you are and your professional journey thus far as well. 

Awesome. So thanks for that introduction. Cameron, so as you know, I know we’ve known each other since childhood and it's great to see your journey too. You're always doing different things and you're pushing and that's fantastic.

So for those of you who don't know me, my name is Ngalinda. I have the same first and second name, funny enough. And I'm originally from Tanzania, east Africa. I grew up in Ireland from the age of six. I'm now 31 years old. And recently in the last two years I’ve moved over to Dubai simply because, as you know, I dunno what time you're watching this or listening to this podcast, but, you know, we've had the toughest years in the last two years with the COVID restrictions and having started my own business, like about some 10 years ago now.

I’m going through so much, being a business owner, keeping the business going, having staff depend on you for their livelihoods and their families. You're trying to push for business no matter what you do, nothing is happening because it's just the way the world is. And it's happening to everyone.

To the point that it's gives you anxiety, all sorts of mental issues. So you end up looking for other avenues and other locations. How can we change our environment to suit us while we can? So, the last two years I came up here, but ultimately I've started a business. 

10 years ago, the reasons behind starting the business, I didn't intend for it to be something more than it is. It's more about just being able to have a job at the time and then that evolved. So now I own a marketing agency and I have another project on the side as well. So that's the gist of it all, you know. 

I suppose, can you take me back? You're in Dubai at the moment, can you take me back before to a time when things maybe weren't as rosy as they are now. I know the two of us growing up in Dublin city, we both lived individually in small apartments and things like that.

Money wasn't as available and at the ready as it would be now. What started your journey to owning your own business and having these side projects, what was the inspiration to start your own business and get off the ground in that way? 

Yeah, that's a good question, Cameron, another great question. What was the inspiration based on why do we do what we do? Why we are where we are. So ultimately to be quite frank since being a child, like since I was young, I've always wanted to do something… when I watched James Bond, I saw James Bond and I was like, I wanna be like him!

He gets all the girls. He has the fancy cars. He has an amazing life. I just thought, “That was amazing”. And I remember being in Tanzania at six years old, It's crazy how you can still remember that time between four and six in your childhood. Something can happen and no matter what, you'll be able to recall that memory and put yourself back in that position as if it literally just happened. 

But if you asked me what I had yesterday or asked yourself what you had yesterday for food, you can’t remember, right? Yeah. So when I was six years old on the plane to come to Ireland, and initially my mom came to Ireland to study, right? 

So my dad was in Germany doing a PhD in mathematics, little brain box there, we’re not all like that!  So he was looking for a way for my mom to go to Europe to find a better life type-of-thing. And the opportunity came, the Celtic Tiger back in the day, Ireland was starting to boom.

And it's a small country. So, you know, there's less violence. It's a great place to raise a family. So mom came to study and while she was studying, sure enough, we were young, me and my sister. So we came to visit to see how life was and just to see our mom really. The moment we landed. My dad the other day actually told me, “Ngalinda, when you landed in Europe back when you were six years old, the first thing you said when you called on the phone to talk to me was, “I am not going back! This is it. I am not leaving!”’

Meaning life was just amazing. And I remember being at the airport and seeing these businessmen, as we're getting on a flight, we're going an economy. And, you know, when you're a child, you're curious, you're asking questions, we're with our uncle and we're asking, “How come they're going in a separate line?”

And then inside the plane, the front end of the plane was covered and blocked off the back end. We couldn't see what was going on and you can just smell better food. This guy had a suit on. And I was like, okay so if you have a suit and you put a tie on and you work in an office, you get a different life. 

That's what I thought, you know, like when you're a kid you don't understand. As opposed to my mother, she doesn't wear a suit and she doesn't put on a tie, and I'm thinking, okay, so if you do that, you get a better life type of thing.

So when I came to Ireland, I remember just that experience on the flight and then just seeing life, the way it is. And I thought to myself, Oh my God. I wanna be like that. I wanna be the kind of person who can get on a flight and just have what I want without knowing what I didn't know at the time.

So my inspiration has always been like getting to that next level type of thing. And usually, cause I didn't have a blueprint. I don’t know about you, Cameron, that if your parents are millionaires or billionaires…

Yeah, me too. Right. So look, we're getting the training from our parents that they got, and it's not their fault or anything like that, but they're giving you the best of what they can give you in terms of wisdom.

But you gotta realize that the information and the source are two different things and both are needed to give you the right path, you know, so someone can tell you one thing, which is good and it helps you, but it's actually not helping you. It's killing you off because they don't know the truth behind it and what you really need in order to get to break through that barrier, to get to the next level.

So me going through that experience. Thinking, oh my God. I'm young. I can achieve this. This is amazing watching. Do you remember Richie Rich? 

I think so. I, I don't, I was more of a Home Alone guy!

I loved Home Alone as well. I dunno if you've seen the meme there about how the Dad could afford to have such a house with eight kids or something.

Worst dad in the world as well. He didn't even care when he came home. He said, “Ah, Kevin, how you doing? How you doing?”

Even you as well, Cameron, you guys in Europe, you are not at a struggle in the first world countries, you're in a thriving scenario, right?

The natural form of humans, they say, is to thrive. So when you're a coming from a household, such what you're coming from. What happens in the third-world countries, you know Maslow's, hierarchy of needs? You find that in a third-world country, they're surviving every day, they're surviving!

So my father would always tell me at a young age, whenever he came to visit, which was every so often in a year. But as he left, he would always say at the airport, I never forget, he would shake my hand or gimme a hug and say, “Remember, struggle!” So his way of struggling, he meant work. Work hard, work hard!

Whereas in Europe, you know, you have higher chances of succeeding, obviously because of the resources and whatnot, the environment, but more-so your thinking, your mindset, you are not coming from an area of, I may fail. If I do something you're coming from an area of, if I fail, I fail, I still eat tomorrow.

This is more like, if I succeed, it's gonna be 100X my life today. Whereas in Africa you are told that if you start your own business, there's nothing magical around that. Like you gotta create your own job or you are screwed. Whereas in Europe, the business is praised, whereas in Africa it's seen as actually lower than getting a job.

Like if you have a job in the government, you are perceived as much greater than if you have your own business where it's quite the reverse in Europe. So my whole point is in Africa, you're struggling, you're in a struggle mindset.

Whereas Cameron could do the same thing as me and you could do the same thing with the same circumstances, but you will go a lot further than I would because I have this limiting belief. I have these limiting beliefs. I'm telling myself I can't.

So my momentum is less than yours and my feelings are doing things to just get by. Whereas you're really going for it. If you're gonna go for it, you're gonna go for it. I'll spend one Euro where you'll spend a hundred Euro at something like advertising, you know, stuff like that. 

So going through what I've gone through, and then going into the workforce, I remember that's where everything changed. I had an internship. I've never had a full-time job. I used to always have little sales jobs, mainly to learn about sales because I come from an academic background and in a third-world country, you have two things to survive, hope and education.

That's where you find most people from lower work, lower-income families in specifically in third-world countries. Their only way of success they believe is either hope, meaning they get education and then they get a high-paying job. Or if not, education.